Apparently, though, I missed the point completely. Today I was kicked out, after assisting with killing Putricide and Lanathel (Shadow and Discipline, respectively, and damn hard roles they are to fill successfully) and assisting with the acquisition of Proto-Drakes and Tribute to Insanity. -- Apparently, even that sentence misses the point completely.
The reason why I've been rejected after an 8-month trial period (Because that's effectively what has happened: I've never been a member; just a very very long-standing, very valuable triallist who has now gotten on the members' nerves to the point where they would rather I leave) is something I'm still struggling actually to find, but I think the best summation of it is: "Some of the core of the guild decided on my behalf and without consulting me that I was not happy where I was, and mistook other 10-man raiding guilds on the same server or on other servers as more suited to my needs, and so have given me a push in that direction."
Yeah. I know. This is going to be a long one.
Firstly, let's look at the guild structure. Or, more to the point, let's look at the perception I had of the guild structure which apparently is not actually how things work at all. At the top of any guild, you have the GM -- in this case, Chayah. Below that, you have the officers. In this case, the officers were the two assistant Raid Leaders: Razzmatazz and Tinytran; with assistance from the Main Tanks -- Finaldo, Lucian, and occasionally Asmodeus (Matsumoto). Below that, you have the raiders.
That's it. That's how a guild works. The GM calls the shots with assistance from his officers. Specifically in this case, there were always two raid leaders in one raid for the purposes of debate and consultation in officer chat -- two out of the three (Chayah, Razzmatazz and Tinytran) were present at all times.
Now I'll explain about myself as a raider: I have a capacity for leadership. I am perceptive, intelligent, and extremely good with language and communication. I can see what goes wrong on a wipe, how to solve it, and how to tell other people how to solve it. That's what you see in a raid with me: I don't pay attention to membership, ranks, or anything like that. If I have something to say which will assist in killing the boss, I will say it in /ra and I will, perfectly justifiably, expect my opinion to be taken note of, because I know what I'm talking about and it will benefit you to listen to it. If you read those last few sentences and thought "What an arrogant jerk", you can click the red X now. No one will judge you. I'll call you an ignorant scrub for thinking that successful raids could operate without people giving their input, but apart from that no one will judge you.
Since I have a capacity for leadership, I understand the importance of a command structure. 10 people with opinions is great; but if no one speaks out to say, "Right, we will take THIS element of this strategy and THAT element from that strategy, because it is most likely to result in success" then a raid will be all theory and no action. Conversely, if everyone says in whispers or in some other chat channel with just a few of their friends what should be done, and doesn't communicate with the whole of the group, bedlam occurs.
FHC has no command structure. Outwardly, it appears that it does, and I truly challenge anyone to come to a different conclusion about the guild's structure when you see three different people rotating who wears the Slightly Darker Text hat, two of them always being present at one raid, and pointing out that "Stuff" is being "Discussed" -- with the rest of the raid listening to what they eventually conclude. I'll let Chayah explain what I mean by that:
You see, I think that your impression of what FHC is is still a bit skewiff. I didn't "found" it, I just "did the paperwork". It was founded by Matsumoto, Finaldo, Lucian, Tuonie, Tinytran, Sinthaya, Clavicus, Maudlin, Riel, Razzmatazz, and myself. I'm not being diplomatic - these are the people who got together, said "hey, we're fed up with 25s and with all the raid group baggage, what if we could do 10s together? as friends instead of as "members"? what would it be like?" I'm GM because they all trust me to manage the guild effectively - I was one of the leaders of the old raid groups that most of them were part of and have been friends with most of them for even longer than that. I'm GM because I'm something that everyone has in common. I'm a unifying factor to the sometimes disparate elements of the group. I'm everybody's friend. I've not got any greater authority or weight than any of the other founders except what they give me because of that friendship. (And I have to be very careful not to abuse that.)So, underlying the seemingly straightforward nature of GM-->Officer-->Member, what we actually have is a group of friends. This is where problems start.
Count the names, if you would. You'll notice there are 11 people. That's enough for a 10-man guild as it is, and it's a structure that works more than successfully for CakeFM -- a very greatly progressed 10-man guild on the same server who have just that: 11 members, with one of them on near-permanent standby because all of them have 100% attendance to every raid.
The problem comes when not everyone can attend all the time. And this, presumably, is why FHC recruits other people: Not everyone is able to attend every raid, and there are so few raids per week that even dropping one raid reduces that week's productivity by 50%. All it takes is two drop-outs from that 11-man roster -- say, the girlfriend/boyfriend duo in that list of names -- and that's a raiding week gone. There's nothing wrong with that; but if it happens too often then one moves from being a stable raiding guild to a collection of people all of whom log on very occasionally and clear an instance: without the stability, no progression can occur -- and, while progression isn't a focal point of FHC's raiding goals, it factors in at least to the degree that they want to be raiding the current tier of content at any point of time.
So, you recruit extras to fill the gaps. But the extras don't necessarily fit. They might want something slightly different to what you want. In my case -- my "problem", as it were -- the clique (Since that's what it is) seemed to think that I am solely focussed on progression. I must clear hard modes. I must get my proto-drake. I must beat the game. At one point in time, maybe 18 months ago, that may indeed have been my goal: I did beat the game when Illidan was the final boss, and then I burnt out. What I am actually interested in is bringing out the potential of everyone else in the group. As soon as I started raiding Ulduar with FHC, I saw how much potential there was for greatness. Not "Greatness" in terms of a 10-man Strict ranking, or a "Beat everyone else to kill Arthas Heroic", but "greatness" in the sense of the guild fulfilling the latent potential it had in every single one of those incredibly competent 11 people.
My way of helping this potential to be filled was to contribute quite vastly to the discussions of tactics in /ra and on the forums, to make sure that I was always aware of what I had to do -- and to maintain two gear sets, two specs and five playstyles (I'm not even joking. There's more than one way to play Shadow and more than two ways to play Discipline) for those two specs so that I could contribute as much as I could to the success of the group. But, I'll refer to Chayah again:
People in FHC don't want to wipe, but they want to be allowed to show up to raids after a hard day at uni or the zoo or whatever and not necessarily know everything about every boss, or to be allowed to choose gear based on their own terms rather than on hours of theorycraft, and so on.I've emboldened two things there, because this kind of hyperbole has always irritated me whenever I've seen it; two different and equally strong arguments can be made against it, which I will come on to after I've explained the context of this quote.
Rarely -- and I do mean rarely; I can count on one hand the times that I did this, and over 8 months that's a very small number of occurrences -- I have questioned people's gear choices or spec choices. Not criticised, not blamed: questioned. The times when I've done this have been when we've been chasing that elusive 1% on Anub'arak -- when I was looking for ways in which we could take him down; looking for ways to improve. (And, yes, before you suggest that I didn't look at myself, I did look at myself; hard.) So, fine, occasionally I have crossed the line with one foot, dipping my toes into unknown waters, and perhaps that generated a negative reaction. That is an excuse for an eight-month campaign not to accept me into the rank and file? Something tells me not. Oh, but, Sinespe, what about your arrogance in correcting people's grammar? Short answer: Again, single-hand counting on how many times this happened, and grow the hell up.
The two arguments against this lazy hyperbole are the following:
1) The reason why there are condensed, and very enjoyable to read, strategies on
the guild forums as opposed just to linking people to Tankspot is because it takes 5 minutes; 10 at most; to read a boss strategy. Combine that with the staggered nature of releases in Icecrown, and you're looking at 10-15 minutes per week of reading forum posts detailing strategies. You can do that while on a break at work, or checking e-mails, or while you eat your breakfast. Same with the theorycrafting: The good sections of Elitist Jerks (Off the top of my head and from experience at the ones I have used, Blood Simple springs to mind) tells you what you need to know in a concise and easy-to-read manner. This does not take hours. It takes the mathematicians and casual theorycrafters hours to come up with numbers and prose that you can devour in ten minutes.
2) Since when does everyone need to know "everything" about a boss strat? When did I even imply that? You couldn't do that in Vanilla WoW, and even in TBC the guilds I was in tended to have separate chat channels for Healing, DPS and Tank roles to be assigned. I like to know everything about a boss fight because I like to be able to analyse for improvement -- but on Blood Prince Council, for instance, I could get by knowing the key points: "DPS the one with the healthbar"; "Throw a SW: D on a Kinetic Bomb if you see it's getting low to the ground"; "Be prepared to run when Taldaram is Empowered"; "Stay away from vortices [not "vortexes", you asshats. I've been drilling that into people since TBC.]".
I have digressed slightly. Back to the guild structure, and recruitment from outside: Sometimes, people won't fit. So, what do you do? You'll find out they don't fit pretty quickly -- so, you could talk to them about it and try to see where they're coming from, or you could silently allow your irritation at them to get worse and worse over an 8-month period, recognising that they're incredibly strong players and very useful to your progression, until you get one of the people from the group who knows the Problem Player well -- the GM, of course, because he's the token Fall Guy (Sorry, C, I meant you're a "Friend to everyone" -- that's the term you used to describe it. I prefer "The mask behind which all the bitching can go on" myself. You say potayto, I say "Get stuffed with this cliquery". I mean ... Potahto.) -- to kick the person out and try to explain the unreasonable in reasonable terms.
The problem with the latter choice is that I've been left feeling like an object. An alien. I knew, when I joined, that I had caused a bit of friction. In the first month, this was, I thought, all smoothed over. Chayah was a constant source of sanity in the madness that appeared to be sheer insanity -- For instance someone reportedly got offended during one Ulduar raid when I said "Be careful of aggro in the first few seconds [on Auriaya's pull]." Really. Someone got offended at that purely neutral, sensible reminder. I persevered, because he reminded me that FHC was about accepting others for their faults. So I accepted others for their faults. Seven months later, the clique decided that they didn't want to accept me for mine. But it has been dressed up to me in a way that makes it seem like it's for my own good. Chayah, once more:
So we revisited all the stuff that we thought makes us us and how you could fit into that. The conclusion reached was that both FHC and you would still need to change significantly before we could be comfortable bedfellows. And - I know it sounds hard to believe when you've just been kicked out - but people were genuinely concerned as to how "fair" it was to you to "require" you to change so they didn't have to. They genuinely think that you'll be better off in another group. I think nobody except myself really realised how much you regarded FHC as your home, which I suppose isn't their fault.And why did this happen? Complete lack of communication. Chayah has been my only point of contact -- ever -- for how I have behaved within the guild; and his disposition to be friendly and see everyone's point of view has resulted in my failure to see just how much people apparently hate me. I don't even know who those people are in the list of 11. I suspected that Maudlin might, but apparently he didn't until four or five months into my lack-of-tenure. Did Clavicus hate me? I spent whole evenings talking with him about everything and nothing. Tuonie, I know, did not -- and he reacted with surprise when he discovered that I was no longer in the guild, and the reasoning behind it; so is it the case that some members of that clique were not even present at the decision-making process where what would make me "better off" was decided without my own voice being heard? Same with Lucian: not so often did we speak, but we did speak, and I enjoyed his company immensely; was all that enjoyment one-sided?
It strikes me that I have not been treated as a human being in this. I have been treated as a problem that needs to be solved; a problem that wasn't solved because everyone was too lazy to practice what Chayah was preaching when he told me that everyone accepts everyone else in FHC in spite of their flaws -- if, indeed, this was the philosophy applicable to new members too. The very fact that I've been kicked out is proof that at not one moment did anyone, with the possible exception of those that I have mentioned, consider that I am currently sitting on a chair, looking at a computer screen, and typing on a keyboard: just like they are. I am feeling the pressure of the keys, my heart is pounding in my chest and blood is flowing around my blood vessels. There are people in this world -- outside of this online guise of Sinespe and those who know it -- whom I love: faithfully, passionately, filially, fraternally and sororially. There are passions I follow: my poetry, my archery, my (simple, by comparison) maths, my explorations of philosophy; that none of them know anything about. My fate within this guild has been decided by a group of people who do not know the first thing about me, because I was an outsider and they were determined to keep me that way.
But how could I say they were determined to keep me at arm's length? Simple, really: None of the people who are likely to have been instrumental in my removal from FHC have ever tried to talk to me. They've never tried to get to know me. They've never tried to reconcile what they perceive as differences with me. Throughout, they have not needed me, thus they have chosen to ignore the problem as best they could rather than tackle it. If all goes wrong? Well, doesn't matter, really, does it? They still have enough people to raid with.
And this is the problem with the guild's lack of structure: Letting no one new into the ranks will cause their ranks to stagnate, and eventually they will die off. What's Chayah's reaction to this?
As I said online, the end to an affair is not the end of its meaning: endings complete meaning. They're a necessary component of meaning. Some day, maybe very soon, FHC will end and we'll all move on to other stuff. When that happens I'll still have some very fond (as well as not so fond) memories of FHC and I'll still have things to be pleased about or angry about and to learn from.Everything ends, therefore we'll just sit back and let it happen. I'll give you my direct response to that:
You may have accepted "One day it will die", but that's laziness, in my opinion. It's a casual, shameful excuse for not wanting to do anything about it. Yes, one day we'll all die. That's why we make an effort to last as long as we fucking can.This whole situation has been about a lack of effort. Not in whether to approach me or not, but in the very essence of whether it was worth it to try to approach me. It must have been deemed quite early on -- perhaps even from the guild's creation -- that it was better just to keep themselves to themselves. Perhaps it would have been better for them to stick to that model completely, and recruit no-one, instead of selfishly stringing along very good, perfectly legitimate members only to ditch them at a moment's notice later on.
FHC very quickly became my home. The landlords, who are also the tenants, have decided that I'm "too good", under some ludicrous, hashed definition of the word, for FHC -- that I am unhappy where I am. They think I'd be better off in some flying-pink-unicorn guild where I can be myself. They seemed to think that their lack of desire to integrate me into their group was a two-way thing: That just as they didn't want me in, I didn't want to be in.
I did not go into FHC wanting to be myself; I wanted to be a Hatter. And I damn well did try, okay? To say that this is a two-way thing is ludicrous, Chayah. I have reached out to people; and I've been met by the cold silence of a group banding together and deciding that I'm not suitable for that empty chair on your raiding roster. It was a perfectly comfy chair. I don't want a super expensive and technologically advanced massage chair, thanks; I'll quite happily sit in the comfy, old, moth-eaten armchair into which one can sink and from which one never has to rise.
Sinespe will no longer show her helm, as proud of every single one of Blizzard's cloth helm artworks she may be.
(A side note: Coming in at 3,499 words in length, this is longer than any essay I wrote while I was at University.)
(Another, far more bitter side-note: The last person who suggested on my behalf that I was "unhappy" is still working in Tesco without any kind of analytical brain beyond the shallow. Completely unrelated; I just thought I'd throw something very venomous out there while I was in a "Looking at the people in my life who have sucked hard" mood.)
I think this is why things came to a head - because you don't seem to understand the very context of what's going on in the guild, even after all the attempts at explaining and 8 months of being one of us. Unfortunately, every line I read just continues this sense of "wow, you totally didn't get that" (and yes, you're using enough hyperbole of your own that I think mine would be justified... except I wasn't actually using hyperbole, I meant what I said literally).
ReplyDeleteThis is what I've tried to explain - your idea of what the group was supposed to be is just so incredibly different to what we actually are.
(By the way, we don't recruit - you approached me and asked if you could join. I think this serves to demonstrate why we don't recruit.)
Out of the blue comment from a shadowDiscpriest who lurks here sometimes.
ReplyDeleteMy own guild is a casual raiding guild who also prides itself on being a group of friendly players first, and They-Who-Kill-Bosses second. (Or at least my perception and how it is described on our charter).
While I understand there is a place for analyzing raids to prevent wipes, and for assisting in strategies, if the Core foundation of the guild is not "Raiders" then your efforts would strike me as going agaisnt the grain in my own guild. I love to get into deep theorycrafting and gear/talent/spec discussions to nudge out soem extra heal/DPS, or a bit of post-raid analysis, but we have never, NEVER to my knowledge mentioned in /raid what happened when someone messed up, or called out anyone directly, as it sounds like you may be doing. At worst, our GM/RL would say something along the lines of "you all know what may have happened, lets jsut work on that and try again".
It's not hte most efficient military-style raiding, and probably results in less effective boss-kills, but the majority of my guild likes to unwind after a hard day in the office. The very last thing I want ot hear after an unfortunate wipe is how I could have prevented it. If it was an obvious mistake, I already know it. If it's not obvious, the basic stragey reveiw reminds me.
Sorry to take an opposing viewpoint, but if the FHC is casual and friendly first, then raids are a focus, but not primary. Thus, perhaps you were not a good fit after all, through no fault of your own. I mean, hammers work awesome to get things nailed, but when you want to cut a board in half, there's other things to use than a hammer. This does not discredit the hammer OR the saw, just highlights the differences between them. (if that makes ANY sense?)
From reading the above it seems to me like you really didn't get what has been explained to you before.. I don't mean to sound overly harsh at all, really, but it's truly the situation at the moment.
ReplyDeleteAs for the point which spoke to me the most.. "None of the people who are likely to have been instrumental in my removal from FHC have ever tried to talk to me. They've never tried to get to know me. They've never tried to reconcile what they perceive as differences with me."
I don't really think it's going to help anyone by going into great detail on the subject, but I do hope you know on some level that you're wrong when you say nobody ever tried to connect with you, Sinespe. For me personally, at the very least, that's really not the case at all.
For what it's worth after everything, I really hope things go well for you after today.
I don't know the first thing about what happened or didn't happen or how it happened or didn't happen.
ReplyDeleteBut if my ugly helm weren't already hidden, I'd hide it now in solidarity.
Best to you, brother.
C & K: You're right. I really do not get it. I don't understand how a group of people can put up with someone for 8 months, only to decide one day that they're just going to kick him out -- and not even include him in the discussion in which it is made clear to him that he's not welcome: he's just told it after the fact has already been concluded.
ReplyDeleteI also don't understand how you intend to justify and explain the coldness of this "Non-recruitment" policy to all the other people *not* in that list of 11 who help you out in raids (Note: not "raid alongside you". Amidoinitrite gusy?). How are they expected to believe that their places are secure and that in several months' time *they're* not going to be out on their arses with similar gut-punches dealt to them by "Everyone's friend"?
I cannot help but feel completely cynical about your wish that everything goes well. If everything doesn't, you're all accountable.
This blog post was not a forum for discussing whether I "get" the point of using people outside of your clique without letting them in, then discarding them when they become too much of a hassle. I've made it quite plain that I do not get it. What this blog post is, however, is to show just how pissed off and hurt I am at being treated how I have been treated; and to have 8 months of good raiding time and memories completely soured in the space of an hour.
But you're right, you did try -- and you cared enough to make my decisions for me. In the words of Delrissa: "It's been a kick. Really."
I meant that your misunderstanding goes deeper than that. You don't even understand what I tried to tell you in reply to your email, or why I was saying it. And I understand your need for catharsis, but do you need to insult people and change the facts to justify your own anger?
ReplyDeleteWhy does it have to be an evil and thoughtless act by some insular clique instead of a painful decision that took months to be finally taken?
Why do you take the list of founders out of context as some kind of cold heartless "clique" instead of as a group of disillusioned, tired people who wanted to raid together in peace? Why do you then wrongly assume that they constitute some kind of inner circle when everyone in the group is on an equal footing?
And why have you forgotten that merely weeks after you joined, a lot of the group had decided you weren't our type of person and thought it wasn't going to work out? And that we all - yes, every single one of us - made a strong, conscious effort to include you, help you fit in, overlook the ways you'd unintentionally offended folks and basically accept you? Have you forgotten how far both the existing members and yourself had to come at that time? Have you forgotten how much of an effort we all made (yes, including yourself)?
And why do you summarise the reason for your leaving as you do? The decision wasn't made under some delusion that it was "for your own good", as I've tried so hard to explain - what you "summarised" was just a footnote to try and show you that it wasn't a case of everyone setting out to get you or be malicious for the sake of it.
Why do you say we had a "non-recruitment policy" when you know very well that we just didn't have *any policy at all*? We had to make it up from scratch when you wanted to join.
I tried to show how it doesn't have to be something sour and bitter - the only person who's making this a matter for bitterness is yourself, and yes, that is very painful for me to see. Can you honestly pretend that this is all somebody else's fault and that you're just a victim? Do you not even see how we tried so hard to make the whole thing as un-horrible and un-nasty as possible?
We're still the same people we were yesterday; all that's changed is that we don't raid together in World of Warcraft anymore. That doesn't mean we have to be mortal enemies.
Maybe the reason I am so angry is that I am not the only one apparently changing facts.
ReplyDeleteYou cannot use the argument that it "Took months" to come to a decision about this. Know why? Because, as you told me, you were in the dark as much as I was until two weeks ago. Unless you propose that by calling a meeting you somehow were "brought up to speed" -- which is still not "taking months to make a decision" -- that is "letting a situation fester for months on end and not doing anything about it."
No, I DO NOT forget that, after a few weeks, I was considered not necessarily suitable. Why, then, was I given any kind of assurance by you after that first month that things were smoothed over and that I was a "member"? Why, after that first month, did EVERYTHING GO COMPLETELY SILENT on that front, as far as I was concerned, until yesterday?
You claim "everyone in the group is on an equal footing" ... Except that is NOT what you said in your e-mail. You said that THOSE 11 PEOPLE are equal, and that those outside were on an automatic back foot. You know what that's called? Reading comprehension. Not inference, or conjecture: Reading what you said, remembering what you said, and reflecting on it. I'm the one who doesn't understand this? Perhaps if you stuck to one story instead of slithering around so much we'd be on the same page.
In what universe, pray tell, does "Keeping the problem member in the dark until after the point of no return, and then telling him he has to leave, with no possible compromise whatsoever" in even the SLIGHTEST WAY translate as "trying to make the whole thing as un-horrible and un-nasty as possible"? Do you all have the Emotional Quotients of twelve-year-olds? In what scenario has it ever been *better* to let ill-feeling sit, ferment and grow than to sort it out immediately as it appears? In what scenario has it ever been a good idea to do the exact opposite of what that feeling has been? There's a pretty big fucking difference between "You're not welcome in FHC" and "Welcome to FHC!", so why was the latter response given to me after a month?
We are not the same people we were yesterday. Don't be so disingenuous. How am I expected to trust you or anyone else in that group today in the same way that I did yesterday morning, now that I know how you've chosen to treat me: immorally, inhumanely, and as if I have no voice of my own.
This is my voice, and it has every right to be bitter.
Am a stranger to all of you.
ReplyDeleteSuddenly removing a "trialist" after 8 months of success and progression is just plain stupid and rude behavior. Not much to do about it but it is not how sensible people should behave.
If FHC did not want to deal with your style of play it should have been obvious after 8 days not 8 months.
That being said -- Sinespe is screwed with no where to go. What can you do? Sadly, nothing .. except to warn other gamers to stay away from people like the FHC