Wednesday 23 December 2009

@Paolo: Planning for Tier 10.

My fine, Discipline-based fellow Priest Paolo has created a thread about gearing philosophy for Tier 10 -- weighing up the benefit of the Tier 10 set bonuses for Discipline against the gains of taking the SP/Crit/Haste bonuses available from non-set pieces.

The post is here, and you should go and read it before reading this post, since this is a direct response which was too long to fit in the comment box under the blog post itself.

No, no, no, no, NO, NO, NO, NO!

It's disagreement time! Or, rather, it's time to persuade you away from the BiS non-set argument altogether.

Non-Tier Throughput

As Paolo says, the BiS non-set pieces have a whole bunch of throughput stats on them, and the set bonuses of Tier 10 are more for a tank healer than a raid-shielder. Paolo also implies in his introduction to that blog post that, since his impression of the fights and assigned role so far in ICC has been shield-spamming, overall it is better to take the BiS non-set pieces if you're filling that role because they provide more throughput.

Here's the problem ... well, here's the first problem, of quite a few, I have to say: which throughput stats do you get by taking the non-set gear? Crit and Haste -- mainly haste. Which throughput stats are nigh-useless for a raid shielder? Those very same stats -- Crit and Haste: you don't need DAPPS if you're just raid-shielding. Sure, as Paolo points out, you would gain 25 raw spellpower, but that's an extremely poor gain for losing the Tier 10 bonuses -- as I will demonstrate in a moment. And what you do gain in raw green writing, Paolo then fritters away by saying "I'll gem SP/Int!". It follows that if the only reason you're gemming that intellect is to make up for lost regen, you might as well take the regen, no? If, with the spirit, you can gem pure spellpower, you actually gain throughput by taking the Tier 10 thanks to the lack of need for intellect in gems.

So, the BiS non-set pieces are only good for tank healing, since their only major gain is in DAPPS -- it's not a set for raid-shielding since it confers no benefit (unless the minor 700-1000 shields from Glyph of PW: S crits count as viable DAPPS). But what good are these stats even for tank healing? The DAPPS bonus is minimal. 80 crit? That's only 2%. When you're in a balanced 25-man raid, you're going to be pushing north of 50% crit already, so that extra 2% is a diminished 1% increase. The haste is fairly decent, but only if you don't have haste in other slots -- and haste in other slots is wholly possible to find.

Tier-10 Bonuses

Furthermore, if you're taking the BiS pieces for the purpose of tank healing ... then why not just take the Tier 10 set, given how the bonuses are more tank-centric? You trade a tiny bit of DAPPS and a large chunk of almost-entirely-useless haste for large amounts of extra throughput, potentially freeing up a trinket slot for other things, an actual increase in spellpower-based throughput, and tank-healing set bonuses. Having tanked fights such as Deathbringer Saurfang and Lord Marrowgar, I can say from experience that Chill of the Throne has been very effective in allowing Blizzard to go down the "Tanks take less damage per attack but get attacked more often" route. This route gives us a Deathbringer Saurfang who swings every 1.4 seconds for 6.6k on plate, and a Marrowgar Sabre Lashing for 10-12k every ~1.7 seconds. This rate of damage makes Penance such a powerful spell that you would be a fool not to want its cooldown reset as often as possible.

Raid-shielding

Yet further, there is never going to be a call for raid-shielding on every single fight. Marrowgar and Deathbringer are two fights on which it is viable -- though I would somewhat dispute the former since, unless he charges you and you're slow to get away, the damage he inflicts while using BOOOOONE STOOOORRRRRRM is not *critical* -- it can be healed over time, or pre-shielded *to an extent* without being zealous.

10-man Raid Shielding vs. 25-man Raid Shielding

Paolo's assumptions of raid shielding are also deeply entrenched in 25-man territory. The 10-man raid-shielder only ever has ten people whom she can shield at any one time, which leaves lots and lots of time for tank healing in the meantime. On hearing this, you may think it a pretty ineffectual argument for taking the Tier 10 pieces for 25-man raiding ... but what about changing your philosophy regarding raid-shielding in 25-man settings? By the sounds of things, Paolo is currently shielding a full 25-man raid, all of the time, with Penances here and there to keep certain useful buffs up on the tank, right? So why not, instead, pick two groups to shield, and tank heal the rest of the time? Then go back to raid shielding when those shields need to be refreshed -- or, if you feel like it, pick two different groups to shield every time you move back to clicking your PW: S binding.

Shadow Moonlighting

Paolo justifies taking Tier-10 Shadow gear rather than Tier-10 Discipline gear (He uses the Helm and Gloves in his pure non-set BiS list) using the following logic: "The throughput stats are better, and I intend to dabble in Shadow anyway, so I can kill two birds with one stone."

This logic, unfortunately, is not sound. If you intend to be competitive in the later stages of Icecrown as a Shadow Priest, you're going to want to get the Tier 10 4-piece set bonus. And if you want to do that ... then you'll be gemming SP/Haste, not SP/Crit, in all your relevant gear. (Haste is only better than Spellpower for Shadow when you have the 4-piece Tier 10 set bonus. I will show this at a later point when I update Anathema. In the meantime, just take it from me that this is the case.) The Leggings of Woven Death, for instance, which are BiS for anyone who doesn't need Hit Rating in that slot (which should be everyone, FYI), would therefore have to be socketed with a sub-optimal gem either for Discipline or Shadow.

This, on its own, might not be such a huge argument -- Paolo only overlaps two pieces of gear in this respect which would be affected by a SP/Crit:SP/Haste clash: the legs and Tier 10 Shadow Gloves... But he also cites the helm. The helm, in which you put whichever meta defines your role. You have to take Insightful if you're healing; you have to take Chaotic if you're DPSing.

What I like about Discipline is that you can overlap gear sets with Shadow, to an extent, because SP/Crit/Haste is, overall, The Way to Go™ for both. However, they start to diverge with Haste's increasing importance for Shadow compared to Crit.

Conclusion

Take your Tier 10 set, dear Disciples. You're going to be useful as a tank healer at some point, because Icecrown's tank-damage philosophy favours Penance very highly -- machine gun healing for machine gun damage.

Although Shadow and Discipline can overlap most of the time in their itemisation, it is far better not to try doing so with your Tier set. The bonuses are unique to each and provide far more than a large chunk of haste. Instead of shunning the Spirit on Tier 10 Discipline, embrace it and work around it: Take two throughput trinkets instead of just the one, or work out which dual throughput+regen trinkets have their budgets weighted more towards the former than the latter.

If you wish to be effective as a Shadow Priest in Icecrown, you'll need a full complement of Tier 10 Shadow. If you wish to be effective as a Discipline Priest, embrace your set bonuses: they are the tank healing boon provided on a set laden with the regen that a raid-shielder would love. If you wish to do both? Well ... you're gonna need a lot of Emblems of Frost, I'm afraid.

10 comments:

  1. I did some quick math in my head last night and with the amount of times I use flash heal when I'm raid healing, I would be losing good stats for crap procs. We now have two holy paladins so I will be raid healing more often. (Yay it's what I love!) Plus if I am raid healing and I feel the need to cast an actual heal, I tend to lean towards Greater over Flash.

    With the amount of flash heals I use in a raid, BiS pieces are the way to go for me.

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  2. Sorry man.

    Not finding the disagreement.

    It boils down to neither of us really having a direct answer to this: "You trade a tiny bit of DAPPS and a large chunk of almost-entirely-useless haste for large amounts of extra throughput." We don't know how much throughput we'll actually see from the tier gear. I specifically avoided making a direct throughput comparison, since we have no data to compare. (And in what way is haste useless for tank healing?)

    I do appreciate you pointing out that the tier pieces are more versatile; if you're dancing between tank healing and raid healing, then they are better itemized for sure. I definitely did not highlight this aspect of the gear.

    25-man raid shielding is currently something like this: 6x PWS, PoM, 4x PWS, Penance. It's all about spell power, and having enough mana to support it (which is fairly easy at 245+ levels, using only a few int gems).

    Also, shadow is my offset. I do not intend to gear competitively beyond what I can do within that constraint. Mainspec > offspec. And regarding meta: I have been known to carry around metas like consumables. This was when I was using the T8 shadow helm for both spec. Lol at me for that!

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  3. Nice post also.

    Personally i'm very comfortable 245 geared so the new stuff is all cream. The extra haste in what Paolo is suggesting fits probably my weakest area and doing things a bit faster is about the most value for me.

    Gobble gobble.

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  4. Re: Haste.

    When I said haste was useless, I was saying it in the context of raid-shielding, where you have Borrowed Time up 90-100% of the time. When I then move on to talk about tank healing, I say that, while it is nice, it is not something that is so desirable on those particular gear slots as to be absolutely vital: there are other ways to get the haste if one feels one lacks in that department.

    This was something I forgot to mention in my actual post, and it was supposed to go under the "Moonlighting Shadow" section. One of the "Other places" to get Haste is the Heroic version of Mag'hari Chieftain Staff, and it is BiS for Shadow, if you exclude 25-man Heroic items, socketed with three Cardinal Rubies.

    Re: Off-set.

    It could just be that we are different in this: While I agree that main-spec comes first and off-spec comes second, I nevertheless try to play both Shadow and Discipline at an equal level; and so I like them to be equally min/maxed as far as I care to do so. This is why I admitted a certain laxity in my argument with regards to the Reckless/Potent gemming issue, because it's so small that not even I would care about it. Hell, I'm using my Shadowcleave Pendant in both specs right now, and it's slotted with a Reckless gem. Switching Metas all the time, though, would really annoy me.

    As more wings of Icecrown come out, and whenever Toravon comes out, we'll get a faster flow of Emblems of Frost -- so, while at the moment there's something of an emblem drought, you'll find that before we get to face Arthas we may already be starting to build up surplus Emblems which we can invest in off-spec Tier 10.

    A Romantic argument:

    This upcoming argument is very unscientific, and is a certain deal rationalising rather than justifying, but I think there's a ring of truth to it: Blizzard will have designed ICC around the premise that people will be (eventually) in Tier 10, rather than designing it around the premise of people taking off-set pieces. This doesn't necessarily deny that the off-set pieces are a smidge better and might make certain encounters easier as a result of the min/maxing; however, I don't think we would actually be putting ourselves at any kind of *dis*advantage by taking Tier 10. Given the nature, also, of Emblems of Frost as a 100%, consistent, predictable model of gear advancement rather than the RNG Gods screwing with you, Tier 10 (251, at least) is a somewhat more reliable way to gear.

    Indeed, I have to admit that it wasn't exactly a disagreement. I just felt that you had said some things that didn't necessarily see the full picture, or didn't say some things that should be said. Some useful stuff is coming out of the discourse, at any rate.

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  5. "Some useful stuff is coming out of the discourse, at any rate."

    ABSOLUTELY.

    I haven't had as satisfying a discussion of tier gear in a long time. And no one is talking T10 beyond the "rotten bonuses!" level. My intent with my post was to stir the pot some, get people thinking. Unfortunately, you're already prone to thinking, so I didn't have much of an effect on you.

    :)

    Re: Moonlighting -- yeah, *eventually* the gearsets will even out, just like they do over the course of any patch. But my shadow gear was definitely slow to keep up in the early days of 3.2, and I'm sure it will be the same in 3.3.

    Unfortunately, with discipline having two roles that gear differently, plus shadow, there are a lot of emblems to farm. I haven't thought much about what my bags will ideally be filled with at the end-of-patch timeframe, but hell, there's a lot of stuff to get! The question is only: where to begin? My best guess is crafted legs and tier chest, but only when I get the 264 token. I will probably end up going 4-piece tier, but it's still a wide-open playing field.

    And spell power for cross-gemming ftw. It's still an *acceptable* stat for both specs. And yeah, I was switching metas like 5x a week; I imagine I'd be switching more than that right now. So that's not very viable any more. It was fun for a while though!

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  6. You almost sound like you're about to complain about bag space.

    I still have a gear set sitting in my bank which would make me eligible for Herald of the Titans.

    It's a full get set. I also have one for Discipline Herald and Shadow and Discipline Dedicated Insanity sets.

    *grumble*

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  7. You two went from arguing about Tier gear to complaining about bag space? You silly gooses.

    I have been slacking and have totally not looked at the shadow gear at all...I should, since I shadow quite a bit. That's another reason I plan on picking up BiS gear for Disc. I probably will save most of my emblems for shadow gear. After I get that robe.

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  9. I think the assumption of a certain play-style (ie simple shield-spamming) is an oversight in this discussion.

    If you heal well, you already use penance quite often. So with t10, you're going to find the penance reset a worthy enough asset.

    Im not gushing over it, but it's clearly the standout power option over the alternatives

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  10. I'm torn on this but I think I'm just going to say screw it and pick up shoulders/pants T10. Eventually I'll have so many frost it won't matter.

    My only concern about T10 2pc now is that stacking it resets the hot, so if you reset it at 5s, it's a full 5s since the last tick to the next one. That is a long time. Maybe blizzard will fix that?

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